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Everybody ! And welcome back to the Polychromatic Podcast. I'm your host, Zach, along with my co - host, my mom, Elaine, and we won't just apologize. Has been a couple of weeks since we've put out an episode, but life has gotten busy. And today we wanted to talk about a movie that we saw when you. When it tells what the movie we saw. We saw the whale and we've been wanting to do that for some time. Sack and oh my god, I just. I've been thinking about it since I saw it. I think we thought Friday night we actually watched it two nights in a row. It was so jam packed with so much that the second watch was awesome for me because I even gained more information and insight with the second time through. Yeah, I think the movie. There's a really a lot to unpack. It's. It's. It's pretty dense. Just, you know, from an emotional human condition standpoint, there's just a lot to have to process in the first time around. There's some details that I personally miss that were pretty critical and I think you know what scene I'm talking about. You know, the relation of the characters that I kind of missed. But I guess for those of you that are not at all from you're familiar with what the whale is on. The whale is a. I guess you would call. I would call it an emotional drama when she called an emotional drama. Yes, and. And. And the lead character is played by Brendan Fraser. He hasn't been in a movie in a really long time. He's been off the map, but it turns out he's been dealing with health issues due to all of his performances with the Mummy movies. And. And there's been a lot of fans that have been wanting him back, you know, planes. Some primary roles here, and I believe he also won the Oscar for them. Yeah, shout out to Brendan Fraser for Best Actor and he so deserves that. Oh my god. Honestly, it's as though he really experienced that character. He. He. You know, they said someone said that he experienced something in his life that seems to mirror his main characters and experiences in the actual plot itself. And I don't know the details of it, but he. He, he does and provide a very convincing performance. Well, I think it goes beyond acting because it is as though he really understands the depth of the character he plays. So I agree with you that there must have been some things. I do know that he had some health issues and had to take some time off. Yeah, but I think there was. Also, I didn't read about it, so I'm not real educated about the whole thing, but I think there was a lawsuit or something that was going on with him and he had health issues and I'm wondering if they were both not. Also some things with his children going on as well. So anyway, overall, just I have to say that the acting was so amazing that he. It's almost like it was effortless for him to play that character. Yeah, it really was. It was like a natural. I think he said during his Oscar nomination during his acceptance speech that he was given what was called a quote unquote Creative Lifeline by director Darren Aaron Aronofsky, who is also the writer. I guess this was originally written for play or something, but you just give you just a brief background. And basically, The White Whale is about a college professor that teaches online English courses, creative writing course, and he. His daughter just kind of for reasons that are unbeknownst to the audience. Just kind of. This thrust back into his life after a period of estrangement and again, the primary characters, played by Brendan Fraser, who goes by the character of Charlie Sadie Sink plays Eli is Eli than his daughter's name. Know he has talent, daughter's name is Ellie and then tie Sims us simp Kins was going to say Simpson. Ty Simpkins is the door to door missionary, a Jehovah's Witness guy, Thomas Thomas, and then who else do they have your whole lawn ? And then lists his character. Yeah, hon, hon, a Chow Chow, I think, as played by Liz. And basically she's. I guess you could say Charlie's caretaker. Unofficially, essentially, there's more to her character. And then a Merry is played by Samantha Morton. You may know Samantha Morton. I personally recognise Samantha Morton as one of the pre cogs from a Minority Report Two Thousand and Sci - fi movie. And in this movie she is Charlie's ex - wife. Yeah, and really the last thing I just want to say before I leave my mom off with the stuff that she's prepared for this. And this all takes place all within the same space with all within four walls. And we weren't sure when we first turn it on if there was something wrong. Because it looked like an older movie, the way that the the. Because it's a letterbox. I can't remember. There's widescreen and there's letterbox. The form factor for the. The resolution wasn't fitting the screen and we were wondering. We later read that that was partially intentionally and artistic mesons and and technique that they used. The director used to try to make things feel more claustrophobic. And the other thing we noticed is the movie is so dark, like visually dark, not just emotionally and vigorously dark, but like literally dark. We had to turn up the brightness on your TV all the way, and even then we had a hard time really seeing the details of the characters. So these kind of drowned out and just darkness, which I guess is appropriate for the the theme of the movie. But I guess do you want to give them an idea of of your analysis and what do you think's going on here ? Sure, I was just going to comment on what you just said, you know, when I took the International cinema class, which I I loved when I was in college and you know, I didn't really ever think about lighting and things like that that I really learned a lot about in this course. And there's something behind that that really sets the mood, you know ? And we talked about different films from different countries and like the French, how they like to use lighting as the main thing of the romance, you know, But in this honestly, it was like Zach said, so dark and so hard to see. But then as you're watching it, you realize why it was filmed this way. So normally we do not prepare for our podcast. We just kind of go with the flow is when we do them, but I just had a really strong desire to write a review about it just because I thought it was phenomenal movie. So this will give you just did a little bit of an outline and then I'd like to with you break down some of this if that's okay. Yeah, I think if you can go over your. Your your essay piece on it, but will do is make people just start over from the beginning and just kind of discuss different aspects and different dynamics of the characters and what we think's going on because there's so much going on here. One final thing we just wanna says spoiler alert warning, This is your last opportunity to turn off the podcast if you haven't seen it. If you have intention of seeing it. The file thing I just want to say before I could kick it back to you is I'm actually looking at AMD be right now and not that I'm devious and end all be all for scores and whatnot. But to see a meta score of sixty. I think a little critical of this movie and maybe not everyone will get the depth of what's here because you know it takes personal circumstances in one's life to maybe be able to understand that some of the deeper stuff. I totally agree. And maybe next week we can kind of talk about how why we personally related to this movie so deeply. I think that might be a good follow - up podcast for this. Yeah, it depends on. I guess we'll just see how far we go. And if there's additional things we feel like we want to fall upon, maybe we might do another another follow the podcast on this. Yeah, Okay, so I'm going to tell you basically the. It is going to talk about. The plot is going to give away a lot of things. So please do you wanna watch at first ? Don't listen to this. The Whale starring Brendan Fraser, who is Charlie his appointment arousing honest in in my opinion, the most emotionally intelligent film ever produced. If you allow yourself to engage, it arouses truths, often unspoken, with gained insight that can be personally life - changing. The risk is opening one's heart to the brutal truth regarding relationships in the walls that divide us from the others we love. Often it is much easier to to deny and avoid. And this concept is the movies victory. Brendan Fraser is no peace man, weighing over six hundred pounds, and when the movie opens, he is on the brink of dying. Sadly, he is eating himself to death due to his tormenting pain. He is devastated with incredible guilt and shame for life decisions in the past with hunting scars as a result, he isolates himself from the world surrounded by darkness, none greater than that. In his heart, it becomes very apparent that his greatest love is his daughter Emma. Ellie. Ellie, I'm sorry, this is his wife. His ex - wife as Emma, Sorry Ali, although he left her when she was eight years old to be with man Eli, his daughter appears to in the movie after she has been expelled from school and shows up on his doorstep that same day. The question lingers in the beginning as to why she is now seventeen years old and has not seen him since he left her. The truth is revealed through interactions with communications as the movie progresses. Most indicative is their body language, which portrays the intense grief of separation and last years of not experiencing the deep love for one another. Charlie has only one way to express his love besides his continued sobbing by giving her his life savings of one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. Although that seems to be the magical satisfaction for her to continue visits. Her agenda is asking her father to write essays for her. Says he is a critical writing teacher. These provocative interactions emulate clarity that they are very much the same beings, meaning that they are just alike with their intense emotions mast with anger, guilt and regret, but in the end highly sensitive humans that want to belong to gather Ellie's mother interest. The film appearing only for a brief time, and her name is Emma, but enough to grasp the heart wrenching pain they both feel after accomplishing some resolve and tender moments. These are sadly spoiled when she storms out angrily, abandoning Charlie with unanswered questions and feelings concerning'em on Ellie's fate. Charlie's caregiver, Liz is invested in his cab, but it's not revealed until later in the movie. The reason why this is of such great importance to her. Liz is in. Insistent that Charlie goes to the hospital, which he continues to refuse because he wants to die. Their connection is more than that of a caregiver because the pain she is feeling is similar to Charlie's. As it turns out, the man that Charlie left his family for his. Her brother once again. Too much well as tumultuous emotions arise about another family whose pain is overbearing because of their lack of compassion and understanding. Casting a loved one out of the family because of their decision making and judgment is repetitive throughout this film. It made me stop and think about how prevalent this is with families. Non flexibility and lack of openness due to their belief system being the primary objective of their existence. The destruction based on this is the greatest tragedy of all. The scars that never heal and the missed opportunities of joy, love and acceptance ellen who was Charlie's man eventually stopped eating and jumped off of a bridge because of feelings related to shame, guilt and rejection of family members. Listen, Charlie understood this together since Alan was their connection. There are a couple of other characters in this movie, but I felt that their history. I didn't have the same pattern. Same impact as the family that I've spoken about. There's Thomas, who is a wanderer who showed up at Charlie store and was also rejected his family due to stealing from the. From funds from his church and running away to escape his family's humiliation. There are a couple of scenes of interactions that contribute to the impact of the movie with. With Charlie and Allah. But mostly his family forgive him for his wrong doing so basically just to. To explain that further is during the movie he finds out towards the end that he calls his family and they're forgiving him for what he did. And then there that there is this pizza driver who delivered pizzas to Charlie regularly and knew there was something wrong. I need check in with Charlie when he delivered the pizzas. Charlie would always leave a twenty dollar bill in his mailbox since he didn't want to be seen by anyone, including the students he taught a class to online. One day the pizza man was waiting outside my. Charlie opened the door and he saw Charlie and chuckled after what he saw. I believe after I saw this movie that most people would not relate to the characters much more than just watching the mind changing plot. I realized I related to this movie because I have experienced this tormenting pain and felt this movie aced it. But for those who have not experienced this life - changing depth of pain, there is a powerful and important message I believe that speaks to everyone. It's about judgment, acceptance, brutal honesty in a myriad of other emotions that should make everyone stop and think. Is there a loved one that has been cast out of your family because of judgment or the inability to allow that person the freedom to be who they are ? It's not too late to step in and have conversation in a man's. That is, if you feel the need for Walden, you know it's really. That's I think a pretty beautifully put a way of describing kind of the setting without going into too much detail, kind of keeping some mystery alive. Because this is kind of perfect for us to be able to just kind of dive right into our thoughts about what these dynamics are and what's actually going on and what's what the director and the writer of this movie Slash Players is really trying to say to people. And so do you have any thoughts or you want me to just go. I was just going to say, you know, in the beginning when Ali shows up his daughter, she is so angry. She is actually pretty cruel to her father. It took me awhile to really analyze her. The words she said to help because they were so cruel, but I realized that that anchor was really pain and hurt in my opinion. And yes, she had some anger. She had every right to. Because she's seventeen years old now and she hasn't seen him since. She spent eight years old but was so interesting. I think SAC is that she showed up to begin with just out of the blue. She shows up and he. And when he sees her, the look on his face is just like he's seen something like almost like seen an angel or something. Something that he never could have imagined because he is so isolated in his own darkness that that was a very emotional thing when he saw his daughter. Agreed. And you know what I. What I think of a good way of just starting. This is the. The sane and what's eating you have. Well, I can tell you for Charlie, and something is eating Charlie, you know, inside and it's. What's interesting is. And it occurred to me in back when I saw the trailer for it. You know, when I. When Liz and you know says, you know, like you said, like, stop it, you know, and and she's. She threatens to to stab him with a knife and he's like, was that gonna do ? You know, it takes at least two feet before you can hit any. Oregon. And you know it's like this, He was an optimistic person, but his way of coping with it is he had to develop thick skin, like, literally not just figuratively, like, literally, with all the weight that he gained. You know, that was his way of of. Maybe, you know, he became reclusive, became inward and you know, he fed himself all of this food and maybe I'm reading into it a little too, too literally, but. But I feel like it was his way of developing a thick skin. It was the way that he coped. Every character had different way of coping with the circumstances. And what was interesting is Charlie's lover, the legitimate lover and societal taboo. Gay lover. He was the central piece connecting all these characters together. And as we were talking about earlier, you know, had Charlie been having extra marital affair with another woman, it would have just made Charlie looked like a cheap character, right ? But instead, since he was homosexual and not her, you know, he. He was denying himself who he really was, you know, And so that think that's where the power where this movie and really shine through was the fact that he was denying who he was. He was positive and I think a lot of people thought he didn't care about his daughter and it was actually quite the opposite. Even Eli thought doesn't give a crap about me. But it's a lot more complicated because once the mom gets in the picture, we find out all these other things. So, but we'll just say this, The the The Wanderer, Thomas, who's part of New Life Church, shows up on his door when he's doing what he's on his computer, jerking off to gay porn and enter Thomas into the room. And Thomas doesn't notice at first he just knocks on the door and Charlie says, Oh, you know, Liz, Come on in because he thinks it's Liz who's basically his caretaker. And he doesn't lock his door and it's Thomas. And as we later find, we'd later find out some things about Thomas that we don't understand. But basically he, for all intents and purposes, I think, is like a Jehovah's Witness adored it or joke. Jehovah's Witness basically rent. The movie was called The Life, but a New Life, A New Life is what it was called. Yeah, and I think it is just like JeHovah's Witness because they believe one hundred and forty four thousand people are going to be saved. And I believe that's Jehovah's Witnesses belief system. But it was utterly painful for me to watch Liz trying to convince him to go to the hospital because she knew that he was going to be dead soon. His blood pressure was two hundred and thirty eight over one sixty four. I believe something like that. And she's literally freaking out telling him you're dying, You're going to congestive heart failure. Please go to the hospital. But the thing that's really interesting Sack, too, is that she wants that she's enabling him. But then she begins enabling him by giving him a bucket of fried chicken. Yeah, hoagies, extra cheese, Hoagies. And And it's like when he's eating that chicken, you can see even though we've spoken about how dark the room is, You see the crease on his face, glistening on his cheeks and lips. And. And you can see he doesn't have a healthy relationship with food because he can't just eat normal. He actually eats so fast that he chokes often. Yes, it's an addiction. It's an addiction for him. Well, it is because you know, we do know eating disorders. People tend to under eat or overeat. You know, they can be anorexic that completely meet the bulimic. They can be a combination of both. And honestly, his comfort was through his food. That was really evident that that's what comforted him. But it's interesting to watch him as he eats, because even if he's eating and during that time he may be tasting the food or whatever, you can still see that it didn't help him. It's not like afterwards you see a changed person. It's just that he's doing that to try to cope. It's a coping mechanism for him is all it is. Yeah, and you know what you see. And like the scene where he's on his computer and he's reaching for the candy bar drawer with all the candy bars and whatnot any. And at first he's like no. But then he's like he starts looking up stuff about congestive heart failure and stuff. And then he's like script and then he starts eating it but can see after he starts kind of gorging himself on. Some think it's three musketeer bars within and he's in his tune. It fast is not even really swallowing or chewing. He's really swallowing it and you can see within after he finishes the first bar. About a quarter to a third party, a third to. Halfway into the next bar. There's just emptiness in his eyes, and immediately he stops eating. He stops chewing, he tosses in the drawer, and he closes the drawer and he goes in in in in glitter and glances towards the window where he's got a friend that regularly shows up at the window. This. I don't know if it's a. A crow or what it is. I don't think it's. It's a bird of sorts. I mean, I don't know what kind of bird is what it is a blackbird, but I will say that maybe that's supposed to be a symbol for death or something. I never thought about that. You know what though ? I looked at it like whereas. Only friend like his friend, but also looked at it with the compassion of feeding it. But honestly, did you ever think I'm talking about this now, in this first time I really thought of it. It's almost like he's feeding his friend to comfort his friend. Because that's what he knows. Comforts him. Yeah, but you know it is. It's like there's this plate of food for the bird that is. Always got food on it. So he pays attention to that. And you've gotta remember, this guy weighs six hundred pounds watching him. He's got a walker for him to even get up. And really, he gets up once a day, maybe twice a day. I was going to say I think in the movie what I basically I came to a conclusion with is that he gets up to use the bathroom. That's about it because it. To go to bed or to go to bed. But sometimes he falls on the. Sleep, falls asleep on the sofa, but he. It's like he is. You see the perspiration running down his face because of the exertion of doing that. And then the part one part in the movie where he chokes because eating that fast he's not even swallowing an issue. He begins to. Failing it. He's got Kentucky congestive heart, heart failure. He's choking and at one point he couldn't breathe. And Liz is there. Thank. Thankfully, and she tells him to lean on the arm of the sofa and she performs the Heimlich maneuver on her. The Heimlich maneuver on and on him. You mean on him, and she. Because he's so heavy she cannot fit her arms around him to do this. So with a really great force from not just her body, but from a distance back, she thrusts forward to hit him in the middle of his back to try to pop whatever out of his throat is blocking his airway. And it's. That that part of the movie was like, whoa. I mean, if you think about it, there would have been nothing else that she could have done. Because how do you do the Heimlich maneuver on someone you cannot reach around. To be able to get in under their ribs, and to be able to race, you know, their ribs up and and and do that so that the food can be released from the throat and you can tell when the scene happens. This happens all the time. Oh, yeah, because she gets very angry at him and the way that you always deflects. And I don't want to say deflection of the right word, but it's kind of a way of deflecting the way he always deflects these criticisms as he says Yes, I know I'm a horrible person. And and he, he holds a lot of guilt and related later in the movie. Realize why he even holds even more guilt when it comes to Liz. He always. I dunno, I didn't count them. He's always saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I think he genuinely feel sorry. But he also feels like he's the most pathetic thing in the world. And that's why he doesn't go out. I mean, not only is he too big to be able to do much because exertions too much for him. He doesn't want us to be seen by anyone. So as you said, Zach, I'm pretty darn sure you're right about that. That that that because she just knew what to do. And honestly, it is really painful to watch. And then she she starts talking, excuse me. She starts talking about how hard this is for her and I'm trying to during this time personally make the connection of why she caring so much about Charlie. Now what is there about Charlie she cares about ? Okay, she's a caregiver. I can see where you can get close to people. But there was. There. Was. There had to be a common thread with those two because it was something much deeper than that. And she even says something like Charlie, I can't do this. I've been through this before. Yeah. And and the other part too, is you can tell that she isn't really a caretaker with a hospital or anything. Because she keeps telling him he needs to go to the hospital. Like this has been an ongoing conversation for a long period of time. And Charlie keeps refusing to go to the hospital because he says he doesn't have health insurance. That's his excuse. But really you can. You know it's because he really wants to die, but he'll use that excuse. I can't. I don't have any money. And it isn't revealed till later in the movie. When he talks to his daughter about giving her the one hundred and twenty thousand dollars that he has in his savings, which for some time he actually has planned on doing. Because he knows he was not there for her and he felt that that would make some amends and may repair the relationship. Get the money because there's not much time. You got to realize this. This movie takes place in less than a week. I think it's a. Five days. It starts on Monday and it ends on Friday. Yes, and you're watching this man suffering and you're watching him many times not able to breathe. He's wheezing his hands on his heart many times and you can tell he's in pain and it's. It's terrifying to think that there are times when he's alone because you wonder who's going to come in and find him dead. Really, you do. And it's almost like Liz was afraid that that might be her. Our lives. Was afraid that he may actually die when she's there. And as I. I spoke about in my review, Allen, her brother was so cast out of his family because of the fact they found out he was a homosexual. Number one and the family couldn't bear that they didn't want to see that for what it was. And she was pretty close to him. And when I say that you could just tell how that affected her because she would try so hard to be connected to him because she was scared something was going to happen and like impending yes. And then I thought it was kind of fascinating in the movie how she talks about he stopped eating. Just the opposite of Charlie. Yeah, but then later on you find out that he actually jumped off a bridge and you could just see this movie. Actually, the more than the words is the body language, the expressions on the face, the eyes that look so sad. And for a great deal as a movie, Brendan Fraser eyes are teary. He tears up a lot. And then at one scene where his daughters over there, he actually goes to the bathroom and begins to sob so hard. The pain that he feels like we said earlier, is so real. It's so real to pain that is so intense that many people may never experience it. But as I said, I know Zak knows that pain. And that's the part sack that I think I've never seen. I've never. I've never seen that in any movie I've ever watched before. Is the ability to be able to really do that to that degree. And that's why I think his acting, I mean, that was so amazing. Yeah, and the movie. So let's just kind of rewind hero quick. So Thomas enter stage left through the door at the beginning. But the beginning. Charlie, played by Brendan Fraser, against six hundred pound guy is jerking off to gay porn and he starts to have hurt. Pain from the orgasm. And he leaves his computer going. And he thinks Liz is at the door so tells Liz to come in. Does not list its ends up being Thomas, this wanderer, the sky from New Life Church purportedly. And. And what's weird is here. He's having what appears to almost be a heart attack or something on the edge, something that needs medical attention. And instead he hands from a piece of paper and he says, Read this to me and Thomas completely can. Fazal, Why are you asking me for you are. Why are you asking me to read this out loud to you when you need a doctor in what it is is. And throughout the movie he. He doesn't really go into detail later. We don't find out later what this essays about. But he said it's one of the best essays he's ever read, presumably from one of his students. That's what we're led to believe until much later on. But it's the story of Moby Dick. It's a book report on Moby Dick and I don't know all the details about Moby Dick by. Think most of us has been required reading in our past or heavily. Some background to know the main character, characters played by a hab and I didn't remember this, but apparently Ahab has a lover lover named Quick Wig and presumably I believe it's. I could be wrong. I don't know the details, but I think based on that it's not that it matters by. Think it's a homosexual relationship and. And they have becomes obsessed with trying to kill Moby Dick, the whale, Why, because the whale tries to kill him, right ? But is. Brendan Fraser's character explains, and the person that wrote the original essay wrote, the whale is just a big dumb animal, doesn't have any emotions. And so. And the author thought it was really sad that a. Have spent so much of his time and effort trying to kill this whale when the swell didn't really have it out for him to begin with. And so to, you know, to plot such a revenge. And you know, the author thought was really sad and so anyways, he's having Thomas read this out loud to him and you can see it starting. His chest pain is starting to starting to pass and so first, you're not sure if it's anxiety or if it's really chest pain since this early on in the movie. And as we start to get to know Thomas's character better, he keeps showing up at the door even though you're asking who is the sky and what is he doing ? And it's not until later on when Ali gets more involved and she's there more often and Eli puts Thomas on the spot for herself, sensing that he is not being one hundred per cent upfront with who he is. The one last thing I just wanted to say before we can move on is, Interestingly enough, every character in this movie is experiencing their own version of pain, their own experience of rejection and brief in judgment. And you would think with the way that Eli barges into her dad's apartment unannounced, just kind of makes herself at home, even though she hates her dad. So she explained she does and she acts as bratty as she does. You almost think that these characters don't have anything common and it really makes her just seem really immature without any context, right ? Bratty and immature. But what you really start to grasp as the movie proceeds onward to its fatality is that a is in part justified the way that she feels, but most importantly, be Charlie. Her father and Eli actually have way more in common than a route then, you know, first meets the eye because again, bratty, teenage seventeen year old girl, cynical, doesn't have any friends on social media, she seeks to blackmail people and make people uncomfortable. And her mom personally thinks she's like the spawn of Satan, and Charlie doesn't think that at all. But even when Emma does finally enter at some point in the picture, she does feel that way and she has kind of given up on her daughter. And that's one thing. Sole differentiator between Emma and Charlie is that you know his ex - wife is cynical and her coping strategy rather than eating yourself to death, developing thick skin literally, as she does with alcohol. So every character kind of has their own coping mechanism, has dealt with regret, shame, guilt, etc. And you know, we haven't really begun to discuss a ton with Ellen. And I guess I'll just do one last thing without going too far. You know, it's interesting in one sense, Ellen jumping into the water and ended up beached and almost like on hunger strike, right ? He's like a beached whale that died because he didn't eat at all than here Charlie was what was eating Charlie. What was eating, you know, Charlie was being eaten alive with his guilt, his shame, his regrets, and he literally was eating him alive. And that pain was so deep inside him that that was the only thing that could come close to touching with how thick a skin was. Right ? That's the only thing that came close to touching the depth of his core with how shielded he was, right ? Well, yes. And I'm thinking that Ellas, Ellas pain was as big as a well and when basically mean ally, ally, Ally's pain, I think, was as big as the well and and in that the writing of the essay, the part that makes you stop and think and I'm going to quote it and I feel saddest of all time. So when I read the boring chapters that were only descriptions of Wales because I knew the author was just trying to save us from his own little sad story just for a little while. And that is just enough information to try to figure out what that all means. But it's deep enough to to start processing and thinking. Wait a second. What's she talking about ? Saving his own life story and making everyone feel better just for a little while ? Yeah, and you know what ? Who's the author in that parallel, Although that might be a book report on the story of Moby Dick. The author in this case was her father. Brain belly rights, but the author of the story, as she tells it in her book report would be her dad. Was. It was about her father's. Yeah, I think. Yeah, he wrote this about her father, even though it was a book report. So it was kind of like, kind of. She had the personal experience to talk about this. She didn't talk about the fact this all happened with her father. But really, the book report. Even though, as a book report on Moby Dick, she was talking about the dynamics between her and her father. Absolute hurry. Yes, and the way that she saw her father. And I'll tell you what she said she was failing in school because of her essays. Well, obviously, the pain that she felt was so grand. And that's why I say that her pain was as big of a. As a whale because she couldn't focus on writing. I believe, because of the pain she had with her dad. Because this is something that was ongoing. As a matter of fact, during the. During the movie, he looks at her. I dunno if it's their Facebook page or what it is or Facebook page, and she doesn't have any friends and she's posting dead animals. Yeah, she has no friends. And he sang, I'm so worried about her. And then you're thinking, Well, wait a minute. You're alone. Two people are concerned about you. It's just these parallels that go back and forth in the movie are amazing. But really, Ellie was her dad and her dad was Ali. And I think that she had the hardest time understanding why her dad just walked out when she was eight years old without an explanation. But in the movie, each time she begins to leave because she's angry. She stops. She stops herself, she opens the door. She stops herself and she continues to talk to him. So she does it in theatrical nature. You think cause she's trying to be a big brat. Can be theatrical about it. But really, she's wanting her dad to rile. Get her dad riled up, right ? Ellie, don't go. Don't go. Yes, because she wants to see if her dad cares like up to testify she is. She's constantly throwing out things at him just to try to hear that some type of caring is there. And she does it in such an angry way it's hard to really grasp where she's going with it. But she. In one point she says, What are you doing now ? You try to be my parent. Yeah, and she's just trying to pull him in. But she. She feels it's reverse psychology almost. Yes, she feels various, strange, but in some way. She so connected well. And you know, the main thing is Ellie's world view. Her view of the world has been shaped by her father. In this broken relationship. She literally looks at the world and she hates it. She hates everything about it. And so her relationship with the world and others hinges upon the relationship with her dad. She's put so much into it because her mom's an alcoholic, is completely checked out. And here is a father that walked out of her life and she explains to her and it really pisses her off. You know, you know, all my lover's name was Ellen. She's like, yes, I know his name is Ellen even came over one gram when Mom was out visiting Grandma. Like, you made stakes. You never made stakes for us. You like, you know. And so she felt very betrayed by him. And so her entire worldview was wrapped up and the fact that she was rejected. And so that's the reason why Brendan Fraser's character. You know, before the movie ends, hearings and before something happens to him, he needs to have some assurances that his daughter's going to be okay because it's kind of what's keeping him alive is he worries about Ali. And it turns out when the mother finally does come into the picture, it is true. Emma is keeping Charlie away from Ali. Yeah, I was just going to give an example of. Like one of the things she did and to entice. Similar to try to see whether or not he cared because she said something like I don't even know why I'm. I'm here. And then she moves the goat door and begins to exit. Like we talk about that Jazz. And then she turns around because he offered her the one hundred and twenty thousand and she goes. Do you want me to pay ? You want to pay me to spend time with you. And then her dad even even made it a greater pot for her. Okay, yeah, I'll. I'll. I'll pay you the one hundred and twenty thousand and I will help you with your essay essays that she had written for school. That that needed to be rewritten. And so he was trying to put everything out there that he could possibly give her to entice her to stay. But I think it's interesting she even came over there to begin with. Well, you know, she was suspended from school. I think her mom helped her very. Account while not accountable. Correction, Her mom was an alcoholic. That was checked out OK, but her mom did give her. Here's here's what her mom did. Her mom herself was cynical. She blames Ally for being dark and demented, but Ella, her mom or Sarah, Emma, her mom was partially responsible for her worldview of that, right ? She didn't have any one. So I think the reason why she came out over to Charlie's after being suspended from school is was the safer of the places to be. You know, here. She couldn't be coming home from school early after being suspended and explained to her mom that she'd be suspended because her mom would have lost. Lost her shit even though she was just out in a drunk anyways. So she just kind of helped herself to to Charlie's place. You know, she just, you know, come right in. She would pour yourself a drink, she would help herself to food while bleeding or belittling her dad. And you know, she even went as far as giving him what ? What kind of pills were they ? She gave him some ambien. She crushed it up like she went to make him a sandwich and she said it's going to be a small sandwich with no mayonnaise. And what she did is she crushed up to Ambien pills and put those in the sandwich for. I'm not quite sure too. That even at this point why she did that I don't know. I think I know the reason but okay, go ahead. I think the reason why she did that is she was irritated and there are some times she too wanted to check out from her emotions. So if she could just be a. Charlie's place without having to deal with him talking and listening to him, there was a way that she could do it. So I think is. That night is also when Thomas came over and she got him to smoke pot. Oh, that was so funny because he presents himself as being so straight. And of course he belongs to this church and he's go knocking door to door, going door to door, not knocking on doors and wanting to tell people about Christ. And you know he wants to be. He's this missionary. That's. That definitely has an agenda of a. Spreading the word. But it's really interesting because she. She was going to blackmail him if he didn't smoke marijuana. Remember. Yeah, he said if you don't smoke with me, smoke marijuana with me and I'm gonna tell the cops that you tried to have sex with me. I'm going to tell the cops that you tried to rape me, rape me up. And so he. He decided to smoke pot with her. But then she found out when he said, does this have a car bonnet and she's going. You've done this before. And she really. After a while she really identified that this guy is not who he said he was. And there was a big interaction in the movie with those two. Where she wanted to know more about him and found out that he had disappointed his parents with taking the money from the church. Two thousand six hundred and thirty six dollars is something petty cash that he skipped town with. Right ? And you know, it's hard to tell whether or not Ellie ultimately was trying to help him or hurt him when she decided to blackmail him and send the information. Tracked down his parents and where he was from from Waterloo. I think it was not. I was at Idaho. What's next to Idaho ? Where's this take place ? It. Anyways, it doesn't really matter who he was. He was originally from Iowa, Iowa. Yeah, so originally from Iowa when he came to Idaho. Because this takes place in ios. And so you know she senses that the story doesn't add up, but what she does is when he. When she does all that gets him to smoke weed and then she's out of context. Taking pictures of people on her phone has like why you're taking a picture of me and then she's recording the conversation about him admitting to stealing the money. So it's kind of hard to know whether or not. But eventually gets to a point where Thomas put in the holes himself up and Ellen's room. And of course, Ellen passed away this point, but where Alan's room would be. You know where Alan would be. It would be his room if Ellen was still alive. But Charlie keeps it almost like a museum in there. Keeps up, keeps it locked up, but it was unlocked earlier in the movies. So he. He holds himself up in the room and he admits to Ellie about about what happened and about his shame. And it gives her an opportunity to belittle him and make him feel like he's the hugest hypocrite for being this missionary when he. Himself as a fraud. But when he's in there and he's holed up in there, he does see the Bible and he opens it up and he sees. After previously talking to Liz outside, cause she she reims him, says New Life Church not only hurt Charlie, but it hurt Allen. My brother is what ended his life. So you get the hell outta here. So he makes the connection that that's Alan's Bible because it's in first page. You know Alan. I don't remember his last name. And. And then he notices. There's some Bible verses that are highlighted about not giving into the flesh. If you release yourself from the flesh, your spirit can be saved. And And so he starts to develop this opinion that he really can help Charlie if you can get him to understand that Ellen made the wrong decision about being homosexual and having relationship with him. That if he could free himself from the cardinal pleasures of life, the fleshy pleasures of life that keep believed that trolley could still be saved. And when Charles, when he confronted Charlie about this first, Charlie's like, how do you even. You know ? And at the same time this is after Ali finally blackmailed him. So he's almost on his way out wanting to head back home at this point because he found out his parents are willing to take him back. So that's the part that you like. Is Ally trying to hurt or help Now, according to Charlie, Charlie's convinced Ali was trying to help. I'm not one hundred percent convinced, cause she was pretty. She is a pretty destructive person. But that being said, he's convinced that this is the way to help Charlie. And Charlie's like, do you mean to tell me the beautiful loved that I had with Allen is the reason why he deserved what he had gotten ? That would you truly believe ? And he's like, Yeah, and he tries to get him to explode and admit he's disgusting cause he asks him multiple times. Thomas, you think I'm disgusting ? He said no. Throughout the movie, Charlie's trying to get people to be honest with him. Totally true. And I was just gonna say as you were talking about and Eli holding Thomas accountable by asking him who he really was because she knew he was not who he said he was. It was so interesting how he was trying to talk to Charlie about the Bible. And then Charlie looks at him and said, I've read it two times all the way through. And then Thomas asked Charlie, what did you think about it ? And I taught I. Charlie says, I think it was devastating. Any talks about wars and he's talking about out of this only one hundred and forty four thousand, according to what Thomas's religion is, is going to be saved. And he said, And then all these billions of people are gonna end up in hell. So he actually knew as much, if not more than Tomas did, about what he was trying to tell. Charlie, So I also see that parallel between Eli and Charlie. Oh yeah. Did you see the media because Thomas said Thomas believes he hasn't read the Bible. Charlie believes Eli hasn't read the exercises for class when she has. But the reality is, and he even tells his students in his online course, he wants them to be honest with him. Even finally gets down to the point where throughout the whole movie he intentionally keeps his camera off for the online course because he's ashamed of who he is and he does not. What's. The students to see what he looks like ? What it tells him that he tells him that the camera on his computer is broken. Yes, but after they write some very honest things about themselves, he feels like he owes it to them to be honest with them. So he shows them what he looks like and you get to see the reactions of a dozen people oscillating between concern, disgust, confusion, just a myriad of different facial reactions, and even the. The pizza guy. Cause the pizza guy seems like Charlie is so reclusive he won't even open the door for someone that he doesn't know. And. But he starts to develop kind of a. A thing with a. Not a sexual thing, but a thing with the pizza guile like a normal routine. You to twenty dollars in the. In the mailbox and just leave the pies, and he orders two pies at a time to feed himself. He just gorges himself and you. Now, finally, after the second time, or third time, he's been there multiple times. But in the movie, the second scene he's like, you know. Hi, I'm Dan. How are you doing ? Ok, man, like he's really checking in. Finally towards the latter part of the movie. He does finally wait outside for Charlie to come. Wrapped the pizza and I'm not sure if he's laughing at him or if you scoffing or if he shocked or what reaction but it. It's. I think it's almost just on comfortability when he does stick around to see who's the one that's coming out for the pizza. And there are also a bunch of other uncomfortable situations like the final night when they. He has a fight with his daughter and he has a fight with his wife. Charlie is devastated and so he orders two more pizzas from Cardenas Pizza and key. Gorgeous himself. But then he starts loading up. I was called a ranch. He's just pouring ranch on the pizza. He's beating two or three pieces of bread at a time. He just. You can tell he is in so much pain. He just wants to die. He just wants it to be over. And you know he's eating so much that he's like throwing up and it's just a matter of time until he's. He's dead, you know. And there's so much pain inside. And he's filling that hole with food and it's the only thing that that reaches deep enough inside him with all the fat that he has an m. You know what I mean. It's like the only thing that can cause even when Liz says, you know, like stop saying that otherwise I'll stab you with a knife. So like, what's that going to do this at least two feet into. Hidden in my Oregon's. So he developed thick skin, literally, but not figuratively, because he stole recluse. He still stays inside all the time. And in that final scene when he does wrap up the class and they do see the way he looks, he says something that's very profound. He says, these classes are not important. College itself is not important. Your honesty and what you truly believe. That's what's important. And like a mic drop fashion. Basically, at this point, cause he's fed up and he knows he's out of a job anyways because he also written a kind of unprofessional email to the students about, you know, BF and honest, you know, in the. In the up to that point. And then they did answer his call. This was his final moment with the students. So you know, you chuck the computer, the whole computer and broke it and then had this argument and and but it was profound because Charlie was a very positive person. Cynically positive. I'd say his wife was cynically negative. She mentioned that she says you are always the positive win and the reason why she storms out. There's a kind of a tender moment where they sort of go back to the time when they were together and she's actually sitting next to him on the sofa with her head resting on his shoulder. Actual compassion from there was actual compassion and she. She did drink. She was drinking at the time, but there was that. And then when Charlie said I'm dying is when she got very angry and she said Fuck you because she couldn't face that. Because truly, she never really lost her love for him, that was, I think, pretty obvious she always loved him. Because honestly, there was a part of the character Charlie that you just loved. Because I think it was you knew there was something so deep inside with his heart. And even when he didn't interact with people, he wouldn't really become angry or he wouldn't be calm, mean or better or better. He wanted to express things and I think he was trying to make amends before he passed and I think I really. He passed shortly after his wife came over and I think it's almost like he was holding on just to to finish up some business before Heap he left. He needed to make sure Ali was fine. Going to be okay, you know, before he could move on and one other family to talk about just real quick. What do you think the verdict is ? Do you think Thomas the Missionary ? Do you think he was homosexual ? Not that that matters, but the reason why is because that's the starting scene. He comes in and Charlie says, you know, after he reads and reads it and sticks around until this gets there and whatnot. And before Liz gets there though, Charlie said, Can you do me a favor ? And then there's this awkward silence. And Thomas thinks Charlie wants him to give him like some sort of sexual gratification or something. And and er, Thomas thinks that and in charge. And Charlie's like, No, no, no, I'm not attracted to you at all. That's not what I'm asking. And there was a really awkward moment. But the reason why I asked that is because I realized that he stole the money. I realized that he, you know, Thomas, and you know, was bored with the missionary work. It wasn't rewarding for him. He stole the money. He split town because he. He did want to connect with people deeper. But given the parallel of how he resonated with Allen Allen's character, do know what I mean, cause maybe I feel like he has some of. Maybe if his own denial about things because he was bound and determined that he was going to be able to help Charlie. And and Charlie was actually able to get him to explode by pushing him. Well, I think that one of his wrists. His response was he called him a fetus, meaning that you are so much younger than me. And Charlie was so sincere. But it's not clear whether or not Thomas was a homosexual. But I know that there was a part of me that was inclined to believe that because he was the one that asked Charlie if that's what he was wanting from him. Yes, and Charlie was not going that way at all. And he later followed the Allen subplot down the rabbit hole. Found Ellen's Bible resonated with Allen. Thought that Ellen was on to something, but also believed that it was Alan's sin that killed him. You know, his his inability to give into God's will about what's right and what's wrong. And that bothered Charlie, Cause we've already talked about a few times. But you know, Charlie didn't really believe that. True love. And so when Charlie then starts explaining to him who Alan was, Thomas'Stop stop ! He's trying to get him to stop. Talking is making them uncomfortable if he's not homosexual or he doesn't have a homosexual tendency wise. He. Maybe it's his religion, he was just purely as religion. But why is he getting so uncomfortable about it ? Yeah, it makes it. Makes one stop and think I was just gonna say. Also, another part that I think was really huge in this movie is that Charlie said that he would write essays for her while he sent an essay with Ellie and she turned it in. And she's got a failing grade. She got a failing grade and the essay was the one that he loved so much that she had written four years prior. And he's telling her you're beautiful, you're amazing. Don't you know what an amazing person you are ? And she's looking at him because she cannot believe that she's actually hearing what she's wanted to hear from him or her whole life. Yes, and she has. What's the word I'm looking for ? She She had re resin resigned from the world. She had given up hope on the world, for the world and people in general. Where is Charlie found amazement from people in the world. His daughter is extremely pessimistic view of the world riding the intentions of people. She considered all people to be assholes. But Charlie even says in this, this essay is about you and because he realizes and that was the beauty. And so she was upset because it was a failing grade. But he wanted her to understand. He says in the film. This is the best essay I've ever read in my life, and that honesty and those feelings to him are more important like this. Use even explain to his college students the honesty is important. This class is not important, so he would rather her fail that class and not even pass high school to get her to understand how amazing she is. That's more important than school. Yes. And I think the other thing is that just as he did with Thomas handing him the essay to read when he thinks he's dying, he does that at the end with Ellie. Yes, when he says she's about to walk out. You've got to read this to me. And she's angry because she knows he's dying. And so she's reading this essay to him as he's dying. And that I thought the way that they ended that movie was beautiful because it. Afterwards his act. We talked about this. If he would have just killed over Dad, it would have been ugly. It had been ugly. But he actually gets up and starts walking towards her like he got enough energy to walk. Torture, which she actually earlier in the movie kept saying I want you to walk over here, just stand up and walk over her. Any tried to get up and he couldn't. And he actually smashed his end table, which miraculously healed itself. Which yes, I never saw anyone fix that that we were kind of thinking how how come his tables ? Okay, but now when we thought it was totally broken. But honestly, the beauty in this is that he wanted to share his last breath on earth. Hearing the essay from Ali because it was about her, wasn't it was in it a testament to that fact she was going to be okay and all that literal weight was also figurative weight burden luggage that he was carrying around. And so you see how heavy is when he's taking each step towards her without the walker and then to see it. Him envisioned himself on the beach back when she's eight years old, but also as a connection. Like you said with Alan. Because Allen jumped off the bridge into water so it almost was like they were going to meet up again. He was at the water because he just rose like the lights came like it was like came for the first time in the movie. Yeah, and he rose and then he's at the beach and she's a little girl. It shows her as a little girl. Yeah, And so he goes from being six hundred pounds to floating like the weight has been lifted off of him, both literally and figuratively, and alleys the one that actually opens the door to let the light in at the end, too. But the way they did the transition have seen each foot slowly progress as he's about to have a widow maker. Heart attack writes like a full on. Like this heart's gonna explode. Presumably you think, Oh my god, he's gonna kill over and die. Because even Liz is downstairs waiting for the ambulance. And we're not talking about the endless. To go to the hospital to spawn. We're talking about an ambulance for. To take him to the morgue. And every character said goodbye to him before the scene happened. And when Eli Hats recite her words, which were so much of her identity, she understood that she couldn't just like Charlie could not undone undo what had happened four years prior. When Elie wrote that essay. She was writing the essay not as a book report about Moby Dick. Even though worked for Moby Dick, it was. There was a deeper meaning talking about her relationship with her, her father, and the fact that she really did understand him, even though she felt written off by him and abandoned and alone. And so him hearing those final words as in the beginning, those were the final words he wanted to hear. Just in case he was going to die. He got to hear those out of alley's mouth. And while she a regionally refused, those words denied those words that stop it, stop it, stop it. That last scene when she gets the door and she's about to walk out on him, she stops and the light hits her face and she says Daddy, and you can tell this is a girl that isn't so much grief in in so much pain that the way she acts, theatrical and bratty is is kind of reverse psychology. She's wanting to test just how much for dad gifts or me for saying gives a fuck about her. And she keeps testing that. And you see, each time she comes over, she gets a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper. And heck, even when he asked her to write in a notebook for him, he figures out she's written a haiku even though it seems like something that's nonsensical. So he knows he's got a smart daughter. He just needs to get her to understand. You need to stop having your pessimistic view of this world. Do you have the right to be mad and angry at me ? Yes, driving. Except if you hate me for the rest of my life. Yes, do. Am I OK with you hating the world ? No, I'm not okay with that And so even though initially the money was a draw to her and it was always intended for Ali. I mean health. Think of how Liz felt seeing what had happened to Ellen. Her brother in Charlie could have gotten health insurance, could have gotten help all these years ago and you could hear was the same broken record. And yet this was also the one that came in. Enabled him. I think she did out of compassion though. You know her here. Her brother starved himself to death, then killed himself by suicide, by by jumping off a bridge. And she live with the grief and sadness of that. The person that was closest to understanding her brother that brought happiness to her brother. The one person that did. Charlie is now due to loss of Ellen literally feeding himself to death. Actually, there's a correction here because his. His wife's name was Mary. I just looked it up. Okay, so I dunno where Ella came from then. Maybe the actress's name is Ella. Yeah, that's what it could be that. But anyway, I just wanted a good catch. Yeah, no problem. I just wanted to make that clear. But you know, that's so true. Because the other thing that I was thinking about was that she was really her own parent. Her mom drowned her pain with drinking, her father drowned his pain with eating and she was a rage. And ah,olic. I think. Well, Ellie, Ellie was angry at the world. That was her true. But my point where I was going with this is that she still had that openness in her heart for her dad, where her mom really she could care less about. But her mom also said to Charlie, remember when she said she's an awful person. You know, Eli's an awful person. She's. She's a bad girl and she'll never amount to much. Basically, overall, is what the mother thinks about her daughter, but that. That if she were to get the one hundred and twenty thousand dollars without waiting a few years, that she's just going to squander it, right ? So the mom because a mother squandered it. Very disconnected, but it. Eli doesn't fight for that relationship with her mom. She's fighting for. Relationship with their dad and again at the end when she's going. Daddy, it's after he's told her how much he loves her, how amazing she is, how beautiful she is. How he held that essay that she wrote to the highest degree of anything. He'd have a rat and she really realised. Caught. My Dad really does love me when he's telling me amazing. He loves me so much. He's so sorry for what he's done and he he does go into more of the depth of that with her. And she interrupts him, but she's wanting to hear more. But she's. He's saying to her, I made a mistake. I should have never done that too. I cannot. I cannot repay you. I can't go back and change that. But you are amazing. You're beautiful. You're. You're incredible person. Can't you tell by your writing how amazing you are ? And honestly, in this movie, I didn't see her once reaching out to her mom to salvage that relationship. Because I kind of feel like her mom had given up on her. Her mom had given up and there was no hope. But even though her father had fallen in love with the man and left, she knew that he was no longer around. And I'm guessing because they don't talk much about it. But you see her playing at the beach and I have to believe that up to the age eight she must have had an amazing relationship with her dad. Because that was her grief. That was. That was traumatic for her. That was why sad Hook brief was the size of a whale. Because that her. Her so badly, because she loved her father so much. And I just think that as we mentioned before, the fact she came over. The fact that she. Even though she seems so angry and so put out by him all the time. Distant and distant. You knew that she was by her body language by coming back by storming over to the door, opening the door, letting the light in. That and not just storming out that she really did care. And then the other part. After Charlie passes, you look out the window where he's left. Food for the bird and the plate is broken and all the food is gone. And I thought, Wow, that is very symbolic in many ways. Yeah. And I think the first sign that there was more going on with his daughter than her just being bratty and hating her father forever, and a day in the world too is when she came over. I dunno, as a second, third, fourth time, whatever. And he wants her to write in the notebook again and she's sexually. Or two. She goes over to the. To there there's. This is not a loveseat, but just a single recliner that can turn around and she sits in it. And she turns around from him immediately and and she's wanting him to come over. She is. Because she acts bratty. She turns her back on him, but then she. You hear her go from. That's Hussein. Why couldn't you have called if you really cared, why don't you do more ? Why don't you do more than just child support. But then you find out he was good. He was and he was trying to. But the mother did not want him to have relation. Hut, yes, him out and and so it's something that together they had to fight for. And here's the thing is there, This movie was an example of how misunderstandings then it was more than a misunderstanding, obviously, but just to simplify it into English terms that we can understand how dynamics between people, relationship wise, can lead to some major misunderstandings of one another in ways that are very damaging. And even though we're all after the same thing, right ? We all want the same thing. We all want to be loved and to not be judged unfairly. And every character essentially kind of was after the same thing. They, you know, they wanted acceptance, they wanted love, they wanted connection, and they were all striving for it. But they all had different opinions about one another, about the nature of what brought them to where they're at. And what's interesting about the Thomas thing and is the the wondering Thomas is, I think what's helpful about them adding him in as a character is that's an example of the holier than thou family, family values. I'm not sure if you know this. I had to look this up because I didn't want to speak out of turn and accurately. But I did read a research paper. This was several years back, I think like three or four years ago, and the sexy doesn't sound quite as bad. I actually, I think I was getting the figures confused with them. The lack of. I know I don't think religion and it's got such and such a nasty word has got such bad connotation to it. But there was one that was saying that, you know, I think it was, you know, thirty or forty years ago it was closer to sixty to eighty percent of people in the United States were involved in some sort of religious kind of. Your church or something like that. And it's now well below forty percent. And and so that's the figure I keep gone. Kept getting forget confused. Or I get the two conflated with this other figure, which is, according to sociological research studies, nearly a quarter of individuals report current estrangement with family, and Thomas is an example of how family can use religion as a weapon as a tool for estrangement. Potentially, you know, that's another level of misunderstanding. There are certain people that think if I practice religion, and that's something that's Allie. Discussed in the movie, Right to Thomas. Religion is a way for people to practice to make themselves look better than other people. And sometimes that's used against family. Even it was used against Allen. It was used against Thomas was even, I guess, used against Charlie. Cause, you know, even Liz admitted that so all of these characters were mis attributed, that they were not worth worthy people by God's image and therefore suicidally they were cast out kind of exiled or whatever. And you see, that's the problem is first off relationship with with a higher been higher power. That is every one's own personal journey. And I don't believe if you're born gay that you should go to hell. That doesn't make any sense. You know sexuality is is an individual thing, just like a relationship with God. As an individual thing to have people come into your life and saying you're practicing religion. Ron, you're not doing it right when your relationship with a higher power is your own journey, Your own sexuality is your own journey. It seems to me very bizarre that we do this. But this is what leads to these misunderstandings and unfortunately it leads to isolation and to suffering. Absolutely. And do they have so much more in common with the baseline human condition ? If they could just take the time to get rid of the labels, get rid of the misunderstanding. Realize they have so much more common. Wanted to piggyback that I think that the religious thing was really huge in this movie. But I also want to say that the biggest and exchange of words that Charlie really had with his students was about honesty. Like he was trying to teach them how to be creative writers. But after he. He got frustrated because he didn't think the work they were doing was authentic. He didn't feel it was. He didn't feel they were riding from their hearts. And he kept talking about that You've gotta be from your heart. You gotta be about from your heart. And so much so that basically he wrote an email to them. And that was not really appropriate from the standpoint of just putting it blankly out there so that like, be effing honest. I'm tired of you guys not being honest. And then when he got when he saw them online for the last time, he opens up his cameras so they can see him. But he also said he also reads, I think three different students'students'responses about honesty. And they said something very very. And my parents want me to be radiologist. I don't even know what that is right. They talked about something that was honest. Like I'm being told to do this. And so that was huge. Because again, don't listen to what other people tell you be who you are. Let people be people, let people be people. Be honest. And that's really. He says college doesn't matter at this class doesn't matter. But honesty matters. Yes. And Ellie not passing high school. While that seems. How could he do that to her ? You would rather her be okay, alright with the relationship, than to worry about a class because he realized that even though he had this homosexual relationship, that when she was eight years old, he didn't cover that up. He didn't hide it. But the fact was he was rejected and he was scorned for that. And I think he was trying to express like I said before, he wanted to make amends with people that weren't his life and tell them that he was sorry because he knows how much it hurt them. And obviously I don't believe that when he met Allen that he meant to purposely hurt them. But he talks about how he fell in love with them. Any. Couldn't help it, but with L with I'm Ally, especially, he's telling her that how much he loves her and how deeply sorry he is. But you know what I mean. You think about it, Zach. She is. Maybe she's the one. During those few days of interaction, she's being blatantly honest to him about you left me Dad when I was eight years old. You can. You can. You can sugarcoat that any way you want you. The truth is, and I think that there was a part of that that Charlie took to heart even more so in thinking that Wow, I. I hurt her so deeply. There's nothing I can do to go back and repair that. But to be honest from my heart to her and try to explain to her why that happened is the best thing I can do. And I think than trying to explain that as much as she would allow him to was really important. But then I think the part that really got through to her is when he just told her you are so amazing and just like she's like, stop it, Stop it. Yes. And then she finally gives in because she realizes what she's been wanting to hear. And not only that, I think really, she realizes that her dad's being one hundred percent honest with her and there's so much beauty in that. Because that is when the light came in. And that is when he passed. And it's like I think she grasped that because as far as her mother was concerned, she just kind of left it. Like Ali will do whatever she wants. I don't really care. I have no control over her. I've got my own life kind of thing where Charlie really want to make sure she has taken care of. Okay, in this case, the one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. Whatever she did with it. Hundred and twenty thousand dollars is a large sum of money. So he at least gave her the financial stability to be able to get a. Get a place of her own or whatever she wanted to do with that. But he didn't leave her high and dry, so to speak. Because you know money isn't everything. But let's face it, in this world, you need money to eat. You need money to have a shelter, you need money to. Education, if your vacation. If you want one, you need money to be able to go to a job, to buy a car, have some form of transportation to a job. So he provided what he could. Financially. But I. I also believe those words at the end was all she really needed to hear. So that when he passed. That's what she remembered the most about him. So I also, I just wanted to say Zac, one of the things that I think we forgot to mention here. And I don't remember exactly how this came out. But there was a. A part in the movie. I think he was talking to Liz and he said, Do you believe that people there are people that don't care or do you know ? Do you think it's. It's impossible for people to not care yet. Do you think it's. That's exactly what it was. Do you think it's impossible for people not to care ? And that that one line in the movie just really stood out because that showed his positivity at the world and how much he'd really thought about life, even the last few days of. When he was dying. Because you know what does the simple things. It's a simple things. It's like really, he saw how much care, how much Liz really cared about him. I think he probably realized how much Ali cared about him. Even a stranger that's delivering pizza to him, right, was concerned. Are you okay in there ? So you know what I think. That's when he really came to grasp that. I think most people innately are good and I don't think most people want to hurt. Yes, there are the people that, too. We're going to be realistic. Care. But really. A lot of times people don't know what to do with us. And I think that's the part that I really want to emphasize the most. A lot of people would not understand the depth of pain this movie provokes in one. Unless you've suffered it. But I will tell you some that the reason why there's something there for everyone. Is there someone that you've rejected in your own life because of a judgment ? Because of something they sad have something that you've cast them out of there at your lives and you just say you've just moved on and maybe that person's suffering. Or maybe you don't even know if they're suffering. But just for yourself. Isn't it worth some time and energy to maybe see how that person's doing ? There's a part of me that has a hard time leaving situations in a place where there's not a closure, so to speak. And that doesn't mean with everyone I meet my life, that's totally impossible. But the people that mean something to me. I can't just walk away without saying something. And yes, I have had my own experience with family and it has been painful at times and often. I think I wish there could be some way of a better understanding. But unless I am seeing something that is not accurate, I feel as though the acceptance is not there because I am different. So I'm illustrating this just from a personal point of view, that there's a part of me that wants to actually have a conversation. But I feel like I've tried and it's gone nowhere. And so maybe that's something to consider too. Maybe from the other side because I don't want just people to feel like it. Rest. Just one side because there's two sides to every story. But if a person has actually tried to connect and there's no way that they can connect, it gets to the point that you give up because you want to know something. It began. Eight. It is so extremely painful that walking away is really the only thing one can do unless you want to live that pain for the rest of your life and feel like you want to connect. But if you can't connect because you're not allowed in. My point is there's nothing you can do and I think that it. It's really. I think it's something to ponder, like about just everyone to take a moment and think about that. Is there someone that you really have cast out of your life because their belief system is different than you ? Or why did you catch that person out your life ? Or why ? Because the point is you can still save that. Meaning that you don't have to agree with that person. But the words that could be exchanged could be kind of an everlasting thing within you that could bring peace and comfort. Life is not. I realize that I'm an idealistic person and that's not the way life is. And I understand that. But I also think that after seeing this movie was really tragically sad, how alone each of these people were in their own world when they were once a family. And our judgment and differences of opinion and all the things that maybe weren't that big. That seemed that big at the time. Who into this big way ? Alright, this big, huge disagreement. That seemed like No, I'm not going to go back and revisit that. Because because I'm done. But I'm just saying on both sides, you. I think it makes use. At least it did make me. Made me stop and think about. Well, wake up. This movie has a lot to offer for everyone. It's not just if you get the depth of pain, it's really about who has a pen in your life that maybe you've judged and cast out of your life. And I think that is so strongly revealed in this movie with so much emotion and so much. It's brutal. It's the. It's the brutal truth of it. I mean, that's. That's what it is. And that's why I said it was the most emotionally mature movie I've ever seen. Because we don't want to talk about that stuff. We want to just bury it and let it go because it's too painful to hang on and is too painful to look at that. Yeah, and you know, here's the reality, We're all human. We all suffer from similar afflictions, the. The dynamics of our relationship and the stories we tell ourselves about these relationships and why they haven't worked or not. This is inherently the human condition, right ? We're not. None of us are perfect. None of us are aware that without our flaws. Like you know, I've always been a person that's a proponent of behavior. Shapes outcome. We are not always in control over how others react to things, but we ourselves have a vote in the way we choose to react to situations and also as part of the human condition were also very pain averse. We try to weather. Is burying the paint or stain away from the pain when sometimes processing something. You have to go through the pain in order to move on from it. To not carry that with you. And you know he. He was carrying the burden of all that. To go from being that heavy to. You know, once that emotional burden was lifted, the physical burden was lifted to. But. But the other thing, too, I think, is that I think it's okay to set boundaries in your life when you've determined certain things haven't worked for you when you have. Work towards something. When you have tried to mend something. But it's not your job inherently on your own to fix situations and there's. You know, I think it's important to do your part, but use some. Sometimes important to divorce yourself from relationships that are not helpful and to not feel guilty, especially if you've put on. You know you do do do do due diligence and to try to make things work. And I. But the. But the most important thing beyond that is this movie. I think type of eyes demonstrates the hurt, the misunderstanding, the dynamics between people when people are over simplified. Hm. I. I love what you just said there, because in. Judge one thing of judgment is not necessarily that person, but they can be defined. A person can define a person in the stores for toying or the stories were told. And from that one thing decide, Oh no, no, no, this. This. I don't even want to be with his person. I. Because of the judgment. That judgment that's passed on. No, I can't you know I. I know in other words, that judgment that the way that they perceive the person to be. That judgment just on the one thing becomes so huge that they don't look deeper into that person is just that may be that one person believes differently than they do so. Homosexuality, religion, some of those politics, any of those big subject matters that create or can create a lot of chaos in a family system becomes the reason why ? Is that really the reason why or is it worth it ? I guess what I'm saying is innately. Isn't it more about who that person is ? That's the most important thing to look into. That person is not. Maybe their belief system, but may be just to look at to who that person is. He is that person a good person ? Number one, what do we say ? Good versus evil weed. Yeah, us vs. Them and they're bad and we're good. Here's the thing. But see what I'm just saying. Does that person show good deeds ? Does that person is that person kind ? Is that person even if you disagree with the person's gender for sexuality or their religion or whatever does. Is it worth the relationship because of that ? Was my point, because they may not because they might be a homosexual. I will not hang out with you because you're a homosexual and I think that you're going to go to hell for that. I'm just saying as an example, or you don't go to the same church as I do. So guess what ? You're not going to be saved. Judgment, right ? Right ? Well, and think about this for a moment when Charlie and Mary have that final argument. Why did Mary keep Charlie away from Eli ? Simple. I thought you would think that I was a failure to tell you about the fact she wasn't doing well in class. That's right, cause she put it on herself. So you see how she told herself Charlie was the problem when. Reality. She was concerned with the perceptions that he might have about about her. That that is the reason why she kept him from Ally for all these years, which then made Ali believe built - up animosity towards him that he didn't care. And you know why he wasn't involved. I'm so glad you remembered that, because that's huge and because it's almost like I don't. Didn't remember her taking responsibility, but really what she was saying. His hair. I am supposed to be the good mom and the daughter is not doing well in school. And you want to know something you can tell from that movie this. That Ellie is brilliant. So it's not that she's. She's stupid or she can't get. Thanks. But the mother, I think had originally thought Charlie leaving the way he did with a homosexual. Felt very rejected by that. And of course it may, even though he was just nine, who he really was right. Which makes total sense of why Eli would feel abandoned by her dad. But you want to know something all those years because I'm not sure that Mary, his wife, ex - wife and Ellie's mother even realise till that discussion why she had done that. I'm not sure. And maybe because you know, honestly, the sad thing in life and this is really true. We have so much time to be with people when they're healthy and alive. But so much of the time. The very last words that are sad are so profound and beautiful. And you look back, you're going, Why couldn't this have happened sooner ? Or sometimes it never does get fixed as it was just going to say. Or sometimes it never does get fixed. It just stays that way. But and that's that I. I guess what I'm saying is that depends upon the situation. It depends upon the relationship. It depends upon a lot of things because it takes too. I mean, the relationship is between two people. But if you have one person who's just trying to relate to a loved one but feels rejected because of something about them, like you said, Sack, there's no way in hell they can change that. And it comes to the realization that that there's nothing that can be done. And you know, I think Charlie really tried so hard because Eli didn't realize that he was paying more than child support because she's going. Like, did you realize that we couldn't afford that one apartment because you weren't giving us enough money and he's going. I gave your mom extra money so the mom never squander it. She was squandering it and she wasn't honest enough with her daughter. Does too even tell her. But of course, when you've got. I'm just going to say when you're drinking alcohol, you know how damn expensive alcohol is. I'm telling you, I've had people say this. Alcohol even if you buy the cheapest alcohol is very expensive, especially if you're drinking it every single day. Yeah, when. So you know. I mean, I'm not trying to get into the subject matter. I'm just saying that when you said she squandered the money, perhaps that was mostly buying alcohol because she was dependent upon it. Who knows. Yeah, anyways, back to what I was just saying that basically the problem is there was over simplification of people's complicated personalities been simplified into single labels are single sons named sentences, sometimes single words, homosexual betrayal, and so you now are. Are summarizing entirety of a person on a on a type of fine into one action born to one word or into one sentence. And once the mind's made up, the mind's made up. You know, as humans, we're kind of stubborn. We don't like to be wrong. We don't like to admit that when there is pain in a relationship, that there are two sides to that pain. You know, there's always some aspect of wanting to place the sole blame on a single person. When worn. Complicated relations with people, their mistakes on both sides, often both sides, and you know, the whole us vs. Them kind of mentality. You know, and again, were painted verse. So the reality is I think every character is after the same thing. They all want the same thing, they want acceptance, they want security, they want purpose, they want connection, they want belonging. And most these characters don't have that. Why ? Due to misunderstanding, like even for Thomas, Thomas thought my parents are going to throw me in. Joovy, They're not gonna. They're gonna write me off because I didn't do what they wanted me to do and he was shocked to find out. They just wanted him to go back home. They just they. They did not want him to run away and leave their lives all based on one action. All for the fact he stole some money in. And skip town. They're willing to forgive him. They just wanted to. For him to come back home and for Charlie. Charlie was judged for the fact he was homosexual, for the fact he did have this extra marital affair with a same sex students. And so anyways, the bottom line is, you know these these dynamics in the way that we have. We're in relation to people, sometimes easy and definitely part of the human condition, especially when we're painted verse to place the blame on other people. I'm not saying that we need to make it our job to fix it and to be a fixer when things are not in any position to be fixed. But even in today's world, we do play that classical game that is going to always exist as long so long as we're human that this person's good, this person's bad. How can we in our right minds truly summarize a person down to a single thought, word or sentence ? Yet that's what happens with the dynamics of the relationships. Sometimes that does happen. And like I said, as humans, once our mind is made up, we want to be right. And sometimes we have to keep telling ourselves stories whether or not it's true or not. And those misunderstandings were so deep throughout this movie. And it was a bunch of misunderstandings that lead to these circumstances and all stem from one person. The source of the problem, as it was seen was Ellen. But also that's where all the pain came from. So many people were affected with Allen's passing directly or indirectly. So even though Allen was never had, never given any screentime, could have just seen as useless homosexual that you know, gave up his relationship with his family, relationship with God defected. Charlie effected Liz back to Thomas Becket, his daughter affected marry, his wife affected every character so that I think that's the lesson is his understanding that life is short and before long. You know people are grown up and you can't live with regret in life. So just, you know, be responsible for your behavior. But at the same time you can only do your part as a person. You can't force people to drink the kool - aid you drink or whatever you know you. It's all it's up to you to try to take a stance of compassion towards one another because there's this this mess of misunderstanding. I also think it would be very. Would have been very helpful. Course. Ellie was very young. She's only seventeen in this. But to just totally believe everything her mom said without even checking in with their dad or in. I mean, that's a lot of responsibility put on her appearance. Do that sometimes and sometimes they do. But what ? Where I'm going with this is that sometimes different topics bring so much shame and guilt. People because of society and the stigma much. There's so much stigma with so many things. And so once their shame and guilt is so hard, it's so hard to talk about that because guilt means creating with pain that we'd rather not do. I mean, I have a great definition about shame and guilt that I use a lot with my clients and I used with my patients. But guilt is about something you've done. Seamus, who you are. Shame to me is one of the worst feelings in the whole wide world. And I. I I've experienced myself. Or rejection doesn't feel good either. It doesn't. So to have to step up and to open the topic and really discuss it. And although as hard as it may be, sometimes can give one an answer as to whether or not that person that has judged you is going to open their heart or whether they're close to you. But seeing this movie, I think that was the part that was just so profound about it is that there were things that people thought that we weren't even true. Okay, I mean, that's a big part of it, like you know, and the portrayal like sometimes people portray themselves differently than who they are with Thomas, who portrayed that he was this upright creature Christian person trying to be a missionary and preach to others when he had committed his own sins. Okay, I think there is a way that we can be much more effective with realizing we're all human. And like you said Zach, being able to say what we want to say openly and honestly and to not be ashamed of who we are and the people that do not accept an individual for who they are. You know something ? Then I say There's nothing you can do because you could get you could contort yourself. You could change. You could try numerous times. It's not going to change the situation. It's that other person that has to decide whether or not they want to take a deeper look and really consider the decision they've made. And so I just feel like there was so much misunderstanding because there were just like these thoughts of like, yes, it was true. Charlie did have an affair. Charlie was a homosexual. Charlie did leave his daughter. Charlie did. But you know what ? Like Charlie, I liked Charlie's heart. His heart spoke about honesty. His heart was about was open. He was deep. He he wanted. I guess his expectations may be high for his students, but he wanted them to be successful in this world. But you know what came back to honesty. I don't think they're that helped me with this one. I don't think there's a time in a line in this movie or a time in this movie where Charlie was not honest. Can you think of anything in the movie he was being dishonest about ? I think he was totally pouring his heart and soul out throughout the whole movie. I mean, okay, he might have been avoiding going to the hospital. Okay, but he knew inside he was dying. I'm just saying honesty why while he let it happen though. But that didn't make him dishonest. He kind of did. Why ? Because he could have avoided letting things get that bad. He didn't think about the fact that his death was going to hurt people the way it did. But that's not being dissed. I think that y'all. Yeah, he he but union understand is I mean, it depends on how you look at it. I've got a few other things on a sandwich. We're getting close to two hours just wandering of you and give you said no. I'm just saying no. I think he spoke from his heart when he was dying. Too bad that that's when a lot of this happens and I don't think he had the courage to speak up and extend himself beyond that because he felt so much guilt and pain for what he did to his daughter. And I think that was really why he didn't really speak. Communicate is because he the he was he had. He was shrouded in shame and guilt is. I guess what I'm trying to say. I think a shame was his dishonesty. I mean, I don't think he tried to hide it in a way, but I. It was he did hide in his house. He did feel like he had to hide it from people. I just wanted to say more than anything is. You know, everyone in this movie wanted to be accepted, but every character also needs to have their own self accountability. And more than anything, just understand that there's. There's strength in vulnerability and strength in compassion. And you know, if we can be wise enough to understand there's an opportunity there, you know. And sometimes emotions and those things run deep and they. Over the r over the course of years, if not decades. And it takes putting a lot to the side to. To decide that you're not going to be an. Angry at someone anymore or something that you can't change that it's their behavior you know so well. And I think the one less thing of what you just said there is so important that a person that is angry person that's upset. To let that go and forgive the other person. Not really say forgive, forgive while you go and say I forgive you. But to let go to let it go because that is the compassion we have for ourselves. Is letting go of some of those things that that hurt us so badly and move forward in our lives. Yeah, and I just want to say more than anything, I think the. This movie did a really good job capturing the dread that one feels when going through grief and loss. And I. Just. Situations that are out of your control. You know, in your own life and as humans, we tend to internalize this. We tend to blame others, blame ourselves and you know, if we're not creative. Were destructive and you know. And that's where the vulnerability and being compassionate. Giving people the benefit of the doubt some people may may don't. May not deserve that. Okay, they might use that and abuse that. But in its purest form. There's something transformative that can happen if we give people the benefit of the doubt. As long as we don't let that go too far. That you know we don't have any sense of boundaries. And so I'm just saying even something that was well characterized over the course of decades is always worth a second look. Just to make sure on occasion rather than having our mind made up about something because we could be completely ignorant about the true nature of something with having not experienced it ourselves. As humans, if you haven't walked, it is best to not make a judgment about it and it's. I know it's really hard because as humans, we want to be right. If you want to look smart and we wanna look accepted and we want to be an expert at something. Even if we're just talking on the bandwagon. You know, looking at a social thing and saying and an over simplification of people. You know, these people. They're worthless. These people are this and you know reality is. Try to hold yourself back. Just like Ellie held herself. Mulder stood. A. Walking out again does not mean it's your job to fix it. But it is your job to show up enough there for yourself. You have a sense of closure. You have a sense of peace in your heart. Because there's so many things in life that we don't have control over. So wanted to take control over the things that you do have control over. And the last bit is the things that you don't have control over. You have to accept it. You have to let go. You have to accept the fact. There's some things in life you're not gonna have any control over their outcome and that's just the heart of it to true. All right. Well, hopefully you guys, unless you have anything else you wanna add. I hope the guys found this podcast and informative and resonate with you on a level that you yourself got out of this and if not no worries to each their own. You know, I don't think we claim to be experts in things. I. I do think that we do understand what grief is like. I think we could resonate with the dread that these characters felt and the misunderstandings and you know it just. I guess the disappointments sometimes that comes with life. I totally agree and go ahead. I was just gonna say I don't really have anything else to say. I just. I want to thank you all for listening and I. We love doing this podcast and we really did miss last week. My last week was not right without doing this, but that may sometimes happen. We are humans and sometimes those things happen in right now. Actually, I feel as though I'm coming down with a really bad cold. But I was determined to do this podcast tonight because last week seems kind of empty without doing it. So I just want to say peace and love to all of you. I'm looking forward to another pilot podcast, hopefully next week and in The meantime, take care of yourselves. Yes, be well, be gentle, be kind with yourself and with others. Understand that we're all human and we're all trying our best. And some of us don't understand what the best means and what it means to be vulnerable and compassion towards other people. Just gently try to remind one another without being judgmental. Give yourself grace, yes, disgrace and give others grace. And in the meantime, peace and love. Peace and love to you guys ! Check us out on the web. Polychromatic dot com, Of course. As always, Apple Podcasts rate and subscribe. I guess it's it's not subscription anymore. Follow our podcast on there. Would be helpful again Paul Joyce for the bit of us falling off the map for the past couple of weeks. But we're back and we will be back as we're able to. I will try to get back to our commitment of weekly and just know that we've missed being on the air and we're happy to do this podcast and we're really excited to talk about this so I'm sure we'll have some other topics that come up. You know, Crater Floors happen or at peace and love gas till next time. Take care. Bye !